last chance for acrylics

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rob_van_riel
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last chance for acrylics

Post by rob_van_riel »

<warning: rant ahead>

Hordes of people keep telling me they're the best thing since sliced toast, but everytime I try to use them, especially with an airbrush, I end up screaming with frustration :evil: Any acceptable (to me) usage ends up with a clogged up airbrush, droplets instead of an even coat, or both.

Let me elaborate on the "acceptable to me" clause. It consists of the following:
1: thinners must be available at the local chemists of DIY stores
2: thinning has to be possible by eyeball
3: must work on car repair primers (Halfords, etc.)
4: no other propriatory components to the system
5: the same package of paint must be usable with both airbrush and hairy stick (or touch-up will be impossible)

For the acrylistas, the answer to my problems is typically one of these:
1: You need to use propriatory/hard to get primer
2: Your base surface is unsuitable
3: Your base surface is greasy
4: You need to mix things up very precisely (one actually suggested using scales from a chemists lab.)

See above for why most of these are out. I'm willing to entertain the possiblity of grease from fingers ending up on the model, but several of my attempts have been over untouched primer, so that is out.

So, the acrylistas have one last change to tell me a brand of paint, a type of thinner as per specs above, and a combination of needle size and pressure. If the next experiment(s) fail(s), there will be a purge of all acrylic junk in this house.. :evil: :evil:

If this means I'll be unable to buy paints somewhere down the line, so be it, I'll find another way to waste my time. The frustration and stress level resulting from the use of acrylics would disqualify the activity from being a hobby anyway.
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JamesPerrin
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Re: last chance for acrylics

Post by JamesPerrin »

I use GS Mr Aqueous Color, which can be brushed and sprays without any problems using IPA (chemist), I just eyeball ~50/50 mix, IPA can be used for clean up too. I have an Iwata Revolution with a 0.5mm needle. You may have issues with <0.2mm needles as these are really on suitable for inks.

There are no rules really because everyone's set up is different, even ambient temp/humidity can have an effect. Generally though pressure between 10-15 psi, for simple solid coats, lower pressure/thinner paint for more detailed work. You do need to practice and experiment, therefore buy a cheap kit as a test target. The thing is to recognise what might be causing the problem at hand and how to remedy it. eg

sputtering => paint not thin enough and/or pressure too low
rough surface => paint drying before hitting model, move closer and reduce paint flow (less trigger), more thinner

I had constant airbrush misery before I tried GS Mr Aqueous Color and IPA, it allowed me to get on with things and grow in confidence and expertise so I can now go back and spray enamels or troublesome Xtracrylix without too much of any issue. They were so easy to use I was able to do a winter camo with my first build with Mr Aqueous Color. Image

What airbrush are you using?

With brush painting acrylics for anything more than touch ups it seems to be about using 2 or 3 layers of thinned paint getting some artist's flow enhancer will help to eradicate brush marks, but I don't think you find anything that works quite as well as enamels.

(first person who make an IPA beer joke gets banned :twisted:)
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rob_van_riel
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Re: last chance for acrylics

Post by rob_van_riel »

I wonder if the local chemists will understand the concept of IPA, but other than that, I should have a shot. I have some Gunze Aqueous, and a supply of IPA (obtained through anything but over-the-counter means, unfortunately). I've used several airbrushes including (but likely not limited to) Aztec with black (=acrylic) head, Fengda BD-180 with 0.2, 0.3 and 0.5 needles, and my current "designated acrylic tester", a Paasche Talon with the .38mm needle. 10-15 psi is my normal operating zone, although I've tested a much wider range.

I'll take Gunze+IPA for a swing, see what it does with the parameters you supplied.

Please believe me when I say I really want this to work.

Very nice 110 James.
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Kitaholic
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Re: last chance for acrylics

Post by Kitaholic »

One thing I have found is Vallejo acrylics don't like IPA (resisting the urge to get banned) but pure water works brilliantly. Don't know if anyone else has found this
Regards

Gord

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Re: last chance for acrylics

Post by JamesPerrin »

The Paasche Talon looks comparable to my Iwata Revolution. The needle is an appropriate size, even this is not easy to compare as my Iwata has a graduated needle so it can do very fine and wide spray patterns.
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Re: last chance for acrylics

Post by Kevan Bailey »

Kitaholic wrote:One thing I have found is Vallejo acrylics don't like IPA (resisting the urge to get banned) but pure water works brilliantly. Don't know if anyone else has found this
Certainly have. H2O works perfectly well.

I'm sorry you're having trouble with acrylics, Rob. I was away from modelling for about 30 years; back in the day I'd used enamels by various manufacturers because that was all there was. I tried airbrushing with a basic aircan powered setup and found it horrendous, especially the clean-up, so I stuck to brush painting.

When I returned, of course, everything had changed - you won't believe how radically if you've never been away - so I went with the flow. I bought acrylic paints and all the rest of the stuff that people on this forum used, and started on a long learning curve. My airbrushes aren't expensive ones, the dearest one was 24 quid, but I seem to get good results from them, and after about a year or so I just replace them; they'd probably go on for ever but sometimes I'm less than scrupulous about the cleaning process....

I mostly use 0.2 and 0.3 needles, plus a broad stroke for Kleering/varnishing; I use mostly Vallejo paints and thin them like KitA does. My compressor is a cheap one, but it has a tank. I've recently started using GS Mr Whatever acrylics, and again I thin these a bit with water. Sometimes I get the results that Rob does, but I've no idea what causes things to go wrong: I just assume it's just my own carelessness or ineptitude. That's when I revert to brush painting.

I'm really converted to acrylics, though. They dry fast, there's a huge choice of specialist colours and they're not half as messy as enamels. In the end, though, you do what suits you best and sod everyone else.
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Re: last chance for acrylics

Post by jssel »

I have been using PollyS or Scale paints for years and still sulking over their demise. Never used the brand name thinners, opting with water or sometimes Tamiya thinner with good results. Never thinned for brush work. Only airbrush.

The Mark1 eyeball as a guide. Badger 200 airbrush.

Just starting up with Valajo paints now.
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Re: last chance for acrylics

Post by rob_van_riel »

JamesPerrin wrote:I use GS Mr Aqueous Color, which can be brushed and sprays without any problems using IPA (chemist), I just eyeball ~50/50 mix, IPA can be used for clean up too. I have an Iwata Revolution with a 0.5mm needle.

I had constant airbrush misery before I tried GS Mr Aqueous Color and IPA, it allowed me to get on with things and grow in confidence and expertise so I can now go back and spray enamels or troublesome Xtracrylix without too much of any issue.
You've officially made my day; GSA + IPA is right up there with the finest enamels. Maybe like you, I can work from this baseline for the rest of the pack.

If, and that might be a big if, I can find an easy, dependable source of IPA...
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Re: last chance for acrylics

Post by iggie »

rob_van_riel wrote:
If, and that might be a big if, I can find an easy, dependable source of IPA...
It's readily available on eBay in the UK, may be worth a look on the Netherlands site?
Best wishes

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Re: last chance for acrylics

Post by rob_van_riel »

iggie wrote:
rob_van_riel wrote:If, and that might be a big if, I can find an easy, dependable source of IPA...
It's readily available on eBay in the UK, may be worth a look on the Netherlands site?
Mailorder may be dependable, but it isn't easy. On average, local mail order takes a week to get here (since I'm never there when the delivery arrives, and thus have to pick it up at the depot on a day when I don't, and the depot does work). Bad news when you find out that bottle isn't nearly as full as you thought, or worse, tip it over. Retirement would help, but I'm short about a million euros :cry:

Easy means I can go somewhere before or after work and pick up a supply..

Either that, or it has to be cheap enough to stockpile and with an all but infinite shelf life. It looks like IPA might fall into that category ;-)
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Re: last chance for acrylics

Post by Dazzled »

Kitaholic wrote:One thing I have found is Vallejo acrylics don't like IPA (resisting the urge to get banned) but pure water works brilliantly. Don't know if anyone else has found this
Vallejo acrylics are water based so don't mix with alcohol.

There are 2 types of acrylic model paint, water-based and alcohol-based. Neither is any good with the wrong thinning medium leading to all sorts of problems.

I use mostly Tamiya acrylics thinned with their own thinner but IPA also works well. I sometimes use Vallejo thinned with water and have had no issues so far. I use both an Aztek and a Harder & Steenbeck Evolution and get consistent results with both. Also, I often use car spray primers, usually Halfords own brand.
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Re: last chance for acrylics

Post by PTB11 »

My current acrylic setup is Tamiya paint and Tamiya thinners, Halfords plastic primer and a cheap (£16) Veda airbrush with a 0.3 needle. Paint thinned by eye, to a milk like consistency. Sprayed at about 15-18 psi.
Never gives me a problem.
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Re: last chance for acrylics

Post by rob_van_riel »

Like all good rants here, this has turned into a technical dicussion and a quest for answers :lol:
Dazzled wrote:
Kitaholic wrote:One thing I have found is Vallejo acrylics don't like IPA (resisting the urge to get banned) but pure water works brilliantly. Don't know if anyone else has found this
Vallejo acrylics are water based so don't mix with alcohol.

There are 2 types of acrylic model paint, water-based and alcohol-based. Neither is any good with the wrong thinning medium leading to all sorts of problems.
I beg to differ...

After my little revelation regarding GSA and IPA, I decided to run some tests on the other paints here. I didn't test Tamiya; that works with their own thinner, but fails the touch-up test (wipe the first layer off with the second :sad: ). Their thinner smells much the same, and everyone says it works with IPA.

All my other acrylics are water based, so in theory, should have turned to glop.

Lifecolor does just that; the paint separates, and cannot be recovered once mixed with IPA.

Xtra, Vallejo, Humbrol, and Revell however are different (I did mention I'd been trying to find one that worked, didn't I?). Yes, on first contact with IPA they turn to glop. However, the Xtra glop looked suspiciously like badly mixed paint to me; slightly coloured solvent, with a blob of paint at the bottom, so I added more IPA and kept stirring. By the time I'd added three or four times as much IPA as paint, it started to turn into paint again. A bit of IPA kills these, a ridiculous amount of IPA makes them perfectly usable in the airbrush.

All but Revell went onto the paint mule perfectly, although obviously at that level of reduction needed to be built up in multiple layers, but only about 30 seconds between them, and quite heavy coats at that (this would certainly have caused pudlles with water as thinner; I was deliberately hitting them hard, and by now I know how to mess up). Revell looks dubious, but to be fair, all I had was gloss white, which is always a problem. Multiple coats further apart will probably solve the problem, and different colours might be better in any case.

It seems more and more likely that the path to acrylic happiness is through the use of IPA.
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Re: last chance for acrylics

Post by JamesPerrin »

Both GS and Tamiya can be thinned with water, IPA and Cellulose (lacquer) Thinners . Make sure you have plenty of ventilation and a mask if using the later.

Tamiya thinners are an expensive way of buy IPA. Similarly Mr Levelling Thinners is an expensive way of buying Cellulose Thinners. Both add retarder and/or flow enhancer to the main chemical component. I've seen a interesting YouTube video that made home brew thinner with 90parts IPA, 10 distilled water, 1 retarder, 1 flow enhancer which is probably a good approximation of Tamiya's thinners.

I don't have a lot of experience with Vallejo so will not comment further. Other than with all new paint type I recommend use the proprietary stuff initially so that you can learn how teh product is meant to perform. You can then start swapping and changing to see what matches or even improves on the recommended formula. eg Xtracrylix + Tamiya (or IPA+retarder) is better than their own thinners, like Rob I found that neat IPA was too hot.

Even if you use the proprietary stuff for thinning don't squirt your money away by using as an airbrush cleaner afterwards (or expensive airbrush cleaner). Use either neat IPA or Cellulose thinners.

Again find what works for you, and if mixing unknowns do it in a pot not your airbrush's colour cup!
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Re: last chance for acrylics

Post by rob_van_riel »

I try to stay clear of cellulose thinners; they'll disolve anything not specifically designed to resist them, and they're a veritable witches brew of organic solvents. I'd much prefer to die of something boring than of rotted brains or an interesting new cancer :roll: I only use them for cleaning up after some metallisers.

I must admit a certain incident with Xtra "Red Arrow Red" turning to glop shattered my faith in matching thinners, and my contrary nature finished it off. If I'm going to make a mess, it's going to a cheap mess, and besides, it annoys me when they charge 100 times the cost of the chemicals :evil:

As for mixing in the paintcup: no way. Ever. I've got enough trouble without sending invitations like that :shock:
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