Building old toolings versus "modern" toolings- why so?

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Stuart
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Re: Building old toolings versus "modern" toolings- why so?

Post by Stuart »

CementNotGlue wrote:
Sir T wrote: I also think there's no such thing as a 'kit not worth building'.
Really?

I can think of some atrocious kits the designer/toolmaker must have knocked-up in the last working hours of a Friday.

I'd include Airfix's Me 262, Defiant and Matchbox's Hawker Hunter for starters.

Modern trends I don't like are no pilots and lack of locating holes by some manufacturers.
Yes really.

I have the old tool Defiant and the MB Hunter in the stash (actually I've started the Hunter) and I would consider both perfectly buildable models. Ok so I have the resin correction nose for the defiant, and it'll require some other work - but it's still buildable, and will still look like a Defiant when built (even OOB). Yes ok there's the very nice new tool kit. But why buy another when I already have one in the stash? The same goes for the old tool Blenheim and Battle.

The question is of course - would you want to build it? (Yes in my case).

Can't comment on the 262 as it leaves me cold as a subject, but now you've set a Challange :-D
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Zee28
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Re: Building old toolings versus "modern" toolings- why so?

Post by Zee28 »

Good question. And you're certainly on the right forum to ask it! :-D

I almost exclusively build old CBKs from Airfix, Matchbox and Frog mainly. Plus the occasionally limited run kit from Eastern Europe (Amodel, Special Hobby and the like) and rarely build a modern tooled kit and never a Tamigawa.

Why? Not sure, a combination of lots of things.

Nostalgia as some have said, the old kits take me back to my childhood in the 1970s and I love the memories.

Low parts count. I model only in 1/72 and I think the level of detail in modern kits is often too much for such a small scale, a bit daunting when one looks at the instructions, a bit over-engineered (as others have said) and some of it is arguably pointless and won't be seen once the model is finished. And that is a big thing for me. I'd never do competitions, I am nowhere near good enough, I only model for my own pleasure and if somebody glances at a model on the shelf they might say "Nice Beaufighter", but they are far less likely to say "Hmmmm, I notice that the flange bracket override switching lever is missing from the rear of the cockpit"

I think that in 1/72 the overall look of the finished model is more important than some pointless little detail that no one can see.

My absolute favourite kits at the moment are probably some people's least favourite. I like the Airfix Red Box re-releases. The same classic plastic inside that I remember from my youth but with far superior modern new decals and a more accurate painting guide, Perfect for me!

As James said, sometimes it is far more rewarding to fettle a couple of parts to make something good than it is to just glue 10 perfect fitting parts together that require little effort or thought.


But perhaps there's a bigger picture here.....

Why do so many people love Classic anything? Not just kits but anything at all.

Take the huge following and enthusiasm for classic cars as an example. I'm a classic car enthusiast and have been for decades, classic American cars from the 60s and 70s to be precise. I love 'em despite their obvious shortcomings in comparison to modern cars.

I drive a modern American car as a daily driver and it's very good. Comfortable with electric everything, very efficient, smooth, fantastic stereo, good on safety with airbags everywhere, ABS brakes, stability control, traction control etc. etc. etc. As a car it is excellent but..... does it stir my soul? Does it get my juices flowing? Not really....

If the sun is out and I'm feeling good I'd much rather take one of my 1970s Chevrolet Camaros for a blast. Inefficient, loud, no ABS, dubious brakes and, erm, 'entertaining' handling (!) and all that. But by golly is it fun! The moment I fire up that big old V8 and it coughs and rumbles into life and the first prod of the throttle releases and seemingly endless wave of torque then I am no longer just driving somewhere, I am having a Good Time!

And if I stop for petrol people come to look at it and talk to me. Nobody takes any notice at all of my modern car..... And I would imagine it would be the same for any classic car from any country. Yes, they are nowhere near as safe or efficient as a modern car but for some reason people love 'em.

And I feel the same about classic kits.

Classic, old 'Stuff' generates enthusiasm. Some people like antique furniture, old cars, even old hi-fi has a following. People collect old books and so it goes on. Nobody can quite explain it but it's there.

Any maybe that's the case with Classic Kits. We build 'em, we love 'em, but perhaps we're not quite sure why......

Hang on, I think I've over analysed this, I'll stop now. Must get out more..... :sad:

Zee28
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Re: Building old toolings versus "modern" toolings- why so?

Post by Eric Mc »

Pretty much nailed it.

Last night at my club meeting I bought an original FROG Mosquito.

And I drive a 21 year old Caterham Seven Classic SE.
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Re: Building old toolings versus "modern" toolings- why so?

Post by Zee28 »

Eric Mc wrote:And I drive a 21 year old Caterham Seven Classic SE.
Cool. I've driven a few 7s but (whimp mode on) they scare the pants off me! The performance and handling is tremendous and I totally get why people love them, but when a lorry passed me on the A3 I nearly, well, soiled my trouser area! I felt so vulnerable after decades of being surrounded by acres of Detroit steel.

We are opposite ends of the spectrum Eric. Me: Big, heavy, floppy, inefficient, but fun. You: Small, lightweight, pin-sharp, revvy and also fun!

Good on ya mate. I think if I'd ever been a biker (Which I haven't) I would have been more used to the 'Exposed' feeling of a 7.

I guess you do track days, I would if I had one, the perfect choice.

Looking forward to seeing your Mosie mate, is it going on the forum?
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Re: Building old toolings versus "modern" toolings- why so?

Post by Stuart »

Agreed Mr Zee - That's why I still take 99.9% of my photo's on film.

Nice to hear from you - I hope all is well.

Regards

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Re: Building old toolings versus "modern" toolings- why so?

Post by splash »

I'm like the rest.

Old kits are in general still easy to source and cheap, they have low part counts often subjects that have not been updated and when built look like the subject on the box lid.

New kits tend to be expensive, have a large part count and lots of internal detail that will never be seen.

So for me, give me an old kit any day.
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Re: Building old toolings versus "modern" toolings- why so?

Post by Eric Mc »

Zee28 wrote:
Eric Mc wrote:And I drive a 21 year old Caterham Seven Classic SE.
Cool. I've driven a few 7s but (whimp mode on) they scare the pants off me! The performance and handling is tremendous and I totally get why people love them, but when a lorry passed me on the A3 I nearly, well, soiled my trouser area! I felt so vulnerable after decades of being surrounded by acres of Detroit steel.

We are opposite ends of the spectrum Eric. Me: Big, heavy, floppy, inefficient, but fun. You: Small, lightweight, pin-sharp, revvy and also fun!

Good on ya mate. I think if I'd ever been a biker (Which I haven't) I would have been more used to the 'Exposed' feeling of a 7.

I guess you do track days, I would if I had one, the perfect choice.

Looking forward to seeing your Mosie mate, is it going on the forum?
I did some track days and sprints a few years ago but I've largely given up on that now. The car is getting old now and I don't want to thrash it too much. It's a hoot to drive and it makes wonderful noises - rather like a Merlin on idle.

The Mossie will turn up on a thread, some day.
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Re: Building old toolings versus "modern" toolings- why so?

Post by BWP »

My particular quirk when building models is that I like to "contrast and compare". So I end up buying multiple kits of the same subject from different manufacturers; it's only rarely that I'll buy the same kit more than once (although I might buy the same plastic in different boxes, particularly if the boxings come from different manufacturers, so I can get different markings, etc.).

Having amassed these "subject-themed collections", when it comes to actually building them, I like to try and move forward chronologically -- i.e., I usually build the oldest examples first. Consequently, the kits I'm building most are often the "worst" in my stash, and I've built hardly any "modern" kits, despite owning quite a few.

Having the newer kits in the stash can be a benefit when building the older ones. I can try and replicate better detail by simulating the parts from the newer kit. If I know that a specific new kit has a specific after-market resin replacement part, I often go for a "trickle-down" approach where I buy the replacement part, put it in the newer kit's box, and use the replaced parts on the older kit, to improve the older kit's appearance. Or sometimes I just cut out the middle-man and use the resin parts directly on the old kit. Obviously it's all pretty subjective as to what parts I keep and what I replace, but my overall philosophy is to build the kit into as accurate a representation as I can manage, within the limitations of what's available in spare parts (and my budget) and whatever restrictions the kit might impose. (For instance, the FROG Gloster Pioneer, as is well known, has a badly out-of-scale fuselage -- there's no way to "alter" it to make it correct, you would have to replace it with a scratch-built alternative, and my skills don't extend anywhere near that far! So I ended up building the kit as-is and accepting that the shape is wrong. I still did my best to detail the cockpit, undercarriage, etc. to better represent the real aircraft.)

I built a lot of the "old clunkers" when I was a kid, I don't see any reason to not build them as an adult. I know a lot of people operate on a "replace with the latest" principle: they keep a particular kit in the stash, and when a new version of the same subject comes along, they buy that and sell the older kit. I use the "addition" principle: I add new kits to the stash and keep the older ones. They're all there to be built, one day (although realistically I'm unlikely to live long enough to build them all!).
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Re: Building old toolings versus "modern" toolings- why so?

Post by Saxon »

Low parts count. I model only in 1/72 and I think the level of detail in modern kits is often too much for such a small scale, a bit daunting when one looks at the instructions, a bit over-engineered (as others have said) and some of it is arguably pointless and won't be seen once the model is finished. And that is a big thing for me. I'd never do competitions, I am nowhere near good enough, I only model for my own pleasure and if somebody glances at a model on the shelf they might say "Nice Beaufighter", but they are far less likely to say "Hmmmm, I notice that the flange bracket override switching lever is missing from the rear of the cockpit"

I think that in 1/72 the overall look of the finished model is more important than some pointless little detail that no one can see.
I can't stand invisible detail. I don't see the point and of course all of those extra parts and details hikes up the cost. I also like to paint my canopies black, desk model style. I think they look better that way and saves me worrying about the cockpit.
But perhaps there's a bigger picture here.....

Why do so many people love Classic anything? Not just kits but anything at all.

Take the huge following and enthusiasm for classic cars as an example. I'm a classic car enthusiast and have been for decades, classic American cars from the 60s and 70s to be precise. I love 'em despite their obvious shortcomings in comparison to modern cars.
Asides from nostalgia factor for some, I think there is a lot more style and individuality in "old" things. Look at modern cars they all mostly look the same. There really isn't much which distinguishes the major makes from each other anymore visually speaking.

Same with kits, Matchbox were probably one of the most unique producers out there, odd subjects and markings, window boxes, multi coloured etc. Now every brand tend to come out with the same subjects. It is more fun to surf Ebay looking for odd kits than it is to walk into a store and see the same few subjects over and over.

Not to mention the other factors that have been covered. Older kits can be quicker and more fun to build.
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Re: Building old toolings versus "modern" toolings- why so?

Post by jamesaw »

There's also the entirely practical side of building older kits and that would be subject matter. There are quite a few examples of subjects that were kitted back in the sixties and seventies that will probably never see the light of day with a new release simply because the economics don't make sense. I'm also all for the classic vehicles. My wife got me a Bombardier produced Iltis for my fiftieth. Definitely unsafe at highway speeds, but certainly fun. I just wish someone made a 1/72 scale model of one!
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Re: Building old toolings versus "modern" toolings- why so?

Post by JamesPerrin »

There is also the simple reason I have the kit in the stash so why not build it. Like BWP I tend to build different kits if I wish to build more than one model of a particular aircraft so I enjoy the variety.
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Re: Building old toolings versus "modern" toolings- why so?

Post by DavidWomby »

JamesPerrin wrote:There is also the simple reason I have the kit in the stash so why not build it. Like BWP I tend to build different kits if I wish to build more than one model of a particular aircraft so I enjoy the variety.
I do too but there's a problem I have with that. The worst example I can think of is the Hunter - I have Frog F1, Frog FGA9, Airfix F6 and revised mould FGA9 and Matchbox. They all look like Hunters but they all have inaccuracies. The problem is they all have different inaccuracies from each other and the differences really stand out to me when I display them together!!

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Re: Building old toolings versus "modern" toolings- why so?

Post by splash »

This just turned up in my post today, it says it all, it has a low part count and when built will look OK but I can't ever see Revell or Airfix re-tooling it as its to specialised for the modern market.

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Re: Building old toolings versus "modern" toolings- why so?

Post by Crashpilot »

This just turned up in my post today
This old style boxart makes me think of another reason, why I`m still after old kits:
Some of the boxart is very charming! I already bought some kits, just because I liked the boxart so much!
The following example has a good content, too:

Image

It´s japanese Mania´s world record Kamikaze plane that flew in the 1930s.
(Hasegawa took over the moulds.)
One of my all-time favourite box arts!
I find the combination of the rising sun on the plane with the rising sun in the background very charming,
and that smiling pilot!
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Re: Building old toolings versus "modern" toolings- why so?

Post by Gregers »

As I have said before it is a nostalgia trip for me but the comment about all the extra details that will never be seen is another thing for me. I too do not see the point of it. I am at the momwnt building the old and much derided Airfix Halifax. I also have the nice new Revell Halifax. Both versions in fact but I reached for the Airfix one out of choice even before I decided to do the build for the CBK at Telford. I just like the classic plastic, that's all there is to it. Out of a stash of over 600 kits I think less that 10% are 'new' kits. Also the id the pleasure of turning the proverbial sows ear into that silk purse.

All the best.

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