figures and disturbing implications

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rob_van_riel
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Re: figures and disturbing implications

Post by rob_van_riel »

VMA131Marine wrote:With women combat pilots now serving in the US armed forces, that thinking probably would not fly today (no pun intended).
From what few stories I've heard about and (indirectly) from them, I get the impression they're every bit as cheerfully dirty minded as their male collegues. The line beyond which behaviour is unacceptable will certainly have moved since their introduction to the service, but not nearly as far as the brass and the PC brigade dream. I don't think agressive, insulting, or lewd noseart is going away for quite a while yet...
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Spaceowl
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Re: figures and disturbing implications

Post by Spaceowl »

rob_van_riel wrote:I spent some time today at an event looking (mostly) at figures. This hammered home some tendencies I'd noticed earlier, which quite honestly I find a bit disturbing.

First, the appearent obsession with the SS. Why isn't it good enough to produce figures of WWII German soldiers, and is about half of them (guestimate, possibly very biased) focussed on SS subjects, especially since the only real visible difference between SS and Wehrmacht is found in a few minor insignia.
I've seen this phenomena in the WW2 reenactment and the wargaming communities myself. In point of fact, the SS did have almost universal camouflage uniforms, which do have a lot of visual impact, and there is a natural tendency for the under-informed to swing toward elite formations (US and British Paras, US Marines, Napoleonic French Imperial Guard) rather than the line infantry. At a guess, that accounts for 90% of the interest. With the remaining 10%, however, I do feel there is something darker going on.
rob_van_riel wrote:I don't share modern Germany's desire to deny the existence of hard core nazis and their symbols, but I do feel they're over-represented.
You'll get no argument from me there.

As for the nose art, I'm with Rogers and Hammerstein - (all together now) 'What ain't we got? We ain't got dames!'
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Crashpilot
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Re: figures and disturbing implications

Post by Crashpilot »

Just came back from an exhibition of my club on Saturday and Sunday, and I think there´s some hope that the cliché-loaded gender roles you often find in the way male and female figures are made and displayed, is broken up by some "eccentric" new figures I have seen (I´ll share some pics of the exhib. in another thread) there,
AND: by the living exemple of a Transvestite tank modeller we had there! Nooo, it wasn´t me, please believe me! :grin:
He/she had a table full of modern, post WW armour (no figures, actually) built up, there.
I think she enjoyed our exhibition just like evrybody else.
Waiting for the day, when wars for territory will be something to be read about in history books only.

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m1ks
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Re: figures and disturbing implications

Post by m1ks »

iggie wrote:
rob_van_riel wrote:I suspect it also plays a part in keeping the real thing out of the hobby. Karmic justice in the case of the pervs, I guess, but not so fair to the rest of us and the ladies.
Are you aware how many women modellers there are in the fantasy, GK arena which predominently is overdeveloped female Anime characters? (who interestingly also tend to be strong characters, not merely window dressing for the strong male lead to perv on unlike, say. Hollywood and most of western world theatre!)
There are fewer building tanks and planes in the same way there would be fewer men building scale models of pot plants and designer shoes if they existed.

iggie wrote:And I wonder what the proportion would be from the opposite side; how many male figures are out there that a female modeller would be embarrassed to show her husband? Very few I suspect......
Again, in the GK Arena there are a number and not just showing 'rippling muscles' if you get my drift and the general consensus among the male and female builders on the associated forums is amusement and appreciation that they have said male characters.
As for scantily clad, why should Brigitte Bardot in a fur bikini be more distasteful than Arnold Schwarzennegger in Conans fur underpants?
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Re: figures and disturbing implications

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m1ks wrote:Are you aware how many women modellers there are in the fantasy, GK arena which predominently is overdeveloped female Anime characters?
I afraid I haven't the faintest idea what the "GK arena" is, so this is kind of hard to answer for me. Could you explain the phrase?
(who interestingly also tend to be strong characters, not merely window dressing for the strong male lead to perv on unlike, say. Hollywood and most of western world theatre!)
As something of an anime fan, I'd noticed this. There's some impressive characters running around that fit this description. Excess fan service can still turn me away though.
There are fewer building tanks and planes in the same way there would be fewer men building scale models of pot plants and designer shoes if they existed.
I'm not sure about the shoes, but scaled down potted plants are available, should any require them :-D
As for scantily clad, why should Brigitte Bardot in a fur bikini be more distasteful than Arnold Schwarzennegger in Conans fur underpants?
She isn't. Fantasy barbarians appear to suffer from dillusions of invulnerability, regardless of gender. Both strike me as totally daft, and as archery bait :twisted:
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Re: figures and disturbing implications

Post by DH-Drover »

May I mention Jane of WW2 fame who never finished a comic strip with her clothing intact. According to my mother she (Jane) was loved by all.

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Re: figures and disturbing implications

Post by Dazzled »

Perhaps the tendency towards the way the majority of female figures are represented in model form is a reflection of how they have historically been portrayed in art and advertising. If the manufacturers are doing their market research and find that this sort of product will sell then I'm afraid there is little we can do about it. they are, after all, running a business. As for the over-abundance of SS figures I can't really comment but it is a little disturbing that they appear to be being glamourized almost by the modelling fraternity.
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Eric Mc
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Re: figures and disturbing implications

Post by Eric Mc »

rob_van_riel wrote:
Eric Mc wrote:I wonder what all those who painted risque artwork on the noses of B-17s and B-24s were thinking?
"I wish I could get a grope of the real thing", probably :twisted:

Seriously though, painting risque nose art on airplanes at the front line during war is a vastly different world from scale modelling.
I honestly don't think it is. A lot of the nose art you see on American aircraft was based on the art work of Antonio Vargas. His work was printed in Esquire magazine which was widely read by American servicemen. The famous image on "Memphis Belle" was almost a direct copy of a Vargas painting. Vargas specialised in painting attractive ladies who had quite exaggerated features which to me are very similar to some of the female figure models we see.

I am against censorship generally and I would hate to see a clamp down on a particular aspect of model building which, to me, is a form of art.
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Re: figures and disturbing implications

Post by rob_van_riel »

Eric Mc wrote:
rob_van_riel wrote:Seriously though, painting risque nose art on airplanes at the front line during war is a vastly different world from scale modelling.
I honestly don't think it is.
So you build your models cut of from your loved ones, friends, and normal society, not knowing whether you'll be alive tomorrow or not?
Didn't think so...
Such conditions have strong effects on the psyche.
A lot of the nose art you see on American aircraft was based on the art work of Antonio Vargas. His work was printed in Esquire magazine which was widely read by American servicemen. The famous image on "Memphis Belle" was almost a direct copy of a Vargas painting. Vargas specialised in painting attractive ladies who had quite exaggerated features which to me are very similar to some of the female figure models we see.

I am against censorship generally and I would hate to see a clamp down on a particular aspect of model building which, to me, is a form of art.
I never advocated censorship, and never will, of anything. Sexuality has it's place in the human world, but when it seems to become the dominant way to view women, I worry. I never wanted to get rid of the pin-ups, I just want normal women added to balance them out, and because I honestly find the normal ones far more interesting.

Whether Vargas' work or the nose art derived from it are art is a matter of taste, but the style is certainly distinctive. As you appear to appreciate it, I take it you know of this series of figures: http://www.andreaeurope.com/en/7/girls/ ... eries.html;
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Re: figures and disturbing implications

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Re: figures and disturbing implications

Post by GeorgeSweety »

I'm not really seeing a problem here, if modellers want to build something then it is their choice. If nobody were buying the kits then the manufacturers wouldn't continue to make them. How can you glorify what the SS did 70 odd years ago with a few bits of plastic? If I want to make a model of an SS armoured vehicle then that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm going to start goose stepping down my local high street in a nazi uniform, it means that the SS usually had better equipment and better looking uniforms with regards to camo in my opinion.
With "Female Fantasy" figures, they are just that, fantasy. Manufacturers are not going to make female figures that do not sell, they are in business to make money. You don't have to be a financial genius to work out that a figure of a scantily clad female Valkyrie warrior is going to sell a lot more than a figure of someone's Mum pushing a pram.
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Re: figures and disturbing implications

Post by Eric Mc »

I bet we'd have the "pram rivet counters" posting about various inaccuracies if there were kits of "mums with prams".
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Re: figures and disturbing implications

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GeorgeSweety wrote:How can you glorify what the SS did 70 odd years ago with a few bits of plastic?
You don't. But if those SS markings are what make the bits of plastic interesting, as seems to be the case, you elevate them to heroic status. The myth of the superior SS warrior is celebrated, their evil ignored.
it means that the SS usually had better equipment and better looking uniforms with regards to camo in my opinion.
I have a very nasty suspicion non-camouflaged SS still make up a disproportionate fractions of figures on offer.
You don't have to be a financial genius to work out that a figure of a scantily clad female Valkyrie warrior is going to sell a lot more than a figure of someone's Mum pushing a pram.
True, but you're comparing apples and oranges. A scantily clad mum pushing a pram would probably outsell a valkyrie in full battle armour, which would in turn outsell the mum you mentioned.

I have no issue with the manufacturers following the money, but I do have some issues with where the money turns out to be.
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Re: figures and disturbing implications

Post by lancfan »

Rob, perhaps you should ask that risque or historically dubious figures be banned from this site? (as far as I can see these have never been shown here anyway and none of us seem to be interested in such fringe subjects) to be blunt- we don't have to buy these things so stop worrying ! Although I do remember very well building the classic Airfix Historic figures- if only they were available again.

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Re: figures and disturbing implications

Post by rob_van_riel »

lancfan wrote:Rob, perhaps you should ask that risque or historically dubious figures be banned from this site? (as far as I can see these have never been shown here anyway and none of us seem to be interested in such fringe subjects)
Good grief, no. The last thing I want is a ban. PC censorship is one of the great evils of our time.

What seems to have gotten lost in the clutter is that I have no problem with these figures as such. My worries are about (apparent) overrepresentation of SS (*), and dearth of sensibly clad women as subject. Certainly not something that is happening on this board.

(*)I'd be just as worried if they weren't available at all, by the way, possibly even more so, as this would indicate a society in denial.
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