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Is this the beginning of the end of the Red Box Re-release?
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PostPosted: December 23rd, 2017, 7:55 pm 
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I like that idea Ratch, the white box’s would have worked.

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Is this the beginning of the end of the Red Box Re-release?
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PostPosted: December 23rd, 2017, 8:29 pm 
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One of the joys of building an old Airfix kit now is that there is a good likelihood you are tackling a subject you had a go at much earlier in your modelling "career" and you can then gauge whether you've improved over the ensuing decades (or not, as the case may be :)).


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Is this the beginning of the end of the Red Box Re-release?
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PostPosted: December 26th, 2017, 1:08 pm 
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This is a very interesting discussion topic ;-)

I agree that Airfix should have made an obvious demarcation between Pre-1980's tools and more "modern" tools (except for the god awful 2012 release A-4B kit :roll: ).
Box colour (red with blue top and bottom?) and original Artwork with "Classic" branding. The disclaimer could say something along the lines of " . . . a pre-1980's model kit that requires experienced modelling skills to complete".

Not sure who mentioned Airfix 1/600 scale ships and the possibility of an Airfix limited re-release when auction prices get ridiclously high, therefore creating a market for a "reasonably priced" limited kit release that will sell, but I've seen the 1/600 scale FGNS Rommel kit go for $90USD and the Forrestal for Almost 150USD, so why isn't Airfix releasing those particular kits, it's obvious from the dog fight that occurs with some 1/600 scale ships that a limited re-release may be profitable. The answer is Airfix no longer supports 1/600 scale, leaving a lot of us "dangling".

A recurring theme it seems, dollars first and stuff the enthusiast :evil: :evil:

Back onto the subject of old releases masquerading as a "new" kit, . . . .
The worst long in the tooth kit release in a "new" box is Revell's 1/72 scale P-51D Mustang Model Set Nr.64148, one of the worst shaped Mustang kits ever (H-619) first released in 1963 :shock: and re-released by Revell no less than 13 times in various guises, look that up on Scalemates ;-)
There is simply no warning at all of what the contents are!! :shock: I can imagine that the poorly fitting kit of 1963 is now a REAL challenge for an experienced modeller and a massive "turn off" for a kid (or adults') 'first kit" impulse buy. It is inexcusable for Revell to keep releasing this ancient kit at all when they are in possession of the FAR superior Matchbox P-51D/K tool. But seeing as it sells . . . . still, "dollars first" :evil:

After all that, I guess I'm a glutton for punishment as I love old kits and their challenges, I'm even building an OOB original Revell H-619 kit :shock: :shock: and that's after building this kit's 1970's H-47 incarnation.

Cheers all,
Neil 8-) 8-)

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Is this the beginning of the end of the Red Box Re-release?
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 Post subject: Re: Is this the beginning of the end of the Red Box Re-relea
PostPosted: December 27th, 2017, 3:04 am 
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You're dead right FAAMAN, that P-51 re-issue from Revell is probably the worst culprit ever in the world of re-issues! (Plus maybe the Airfix Widgeon....)

ShaunW (on a different thread in the Aviation section) wrote:
Following on from the interesting discussion about these red box reissues over on Small Talk, I agree that the decals alone are worth the price of the kit and certainly IMHO the much improved quality thereof over the original decals that came with these kits makes for a much more enjoyable classic build experience - no need to go hunting for aftermarket markings and adding to the expense (the latter being particularly important to a tightwad like me :ha: ).
Thanks Shaun, that was exactly the point I was trying to get across. The discussion started to shift more onto the question of whether old kits should be re-released by the manufacturers in new boxes that might be misleading as to the origins of the contents. And, to be fair, that is a very relevant point, but I was really trying to get the bottom of whether Airfix were going to continue with the re-releases or whether, from now on, they are going to focus solely on the Newer Toolings only.

Also, as a CBK fan, I wanted to point out how much had enjoyed these re-issues over the last few years, and was wondering if I was alone in that? (I've built 22 of them and have 3 more in the stash)

But there's a couple of people on the other thread that are now going to buy the re-issue of the Aichi and poor Splash is morning the demise of the 1/76 AFVs that could easily be re-issued. Well it does illustrate my point that I am not alone in my appreciation of these re-issues. Certainly not enough of us to make Airfix reconsider their policy, but still a few missed sales I suppose.....

Another concern of mine is... The New Tools from Airfix that have replaced pretty ropey old kits of the same subject can only be (generally) be a good thing. The old Me-110 and Me-262 (for example) were pretty poor so the newer toolings are certainly welcomed. But what about the older Airfix kits that were a) Pretty good (or unusual subjects), b) Are not getting a re-issue, and c) Haven't got an alternative from any other mainstream manufacturers?

Some of these older kits are really starting to creep up in value from the pre-owned kit dealers, so somebody must want them if they're prepared to pay so much for them. But competitively priced re-issues of these kits, combined with nice new decals, might be most welcomed by some of us.

Off the top of my head, how many of us would welcome, for example, a re-issue of the little Piper Cherokee Arrow? I would!

But I also take the point that some old horrors should probably be left in the history books...... After all, it's only masochists like me who buy and build those ones!

Zee28


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Is this the beginning of the end of the Red Box Re-release?
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 Post subject: Re: Is this the beginning of the end of the Red Box Re-relea
PostPosted: December 27th, 2017, 10:35 am 
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With all these things Zee, the determining factor is how many units they need to sell for a profitable production run. The shorter the run the more expensive (relatively) is the prime cost. Around 15k is considered a good starting point. Some argue 10k, but the prime cost would certainly be more leading to an increased RRP. The proposed cost of the Kitstarter project reflects how the costs increase on short production runs.
On e-bay you only need two bidders to hike the price, but flood the market with a few thousand units and prices plummet.

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Is this the beginning of the end of the Red Box Re-release?
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PostPosted: December 27th, 2017, 11:10 am 
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Zee28 wrote:
But there's a couple of people on the other thread that are now going to buy the re-issue of the Aichi and poor Splash is morning the demise of the 1/76 AFVs that could easily be re-issued. Well it does illustrate my point that I am not alone in my appreciation of these re-issues. Certainly not enough of us to make Airfix reconsider their policy, but still a few missed sales I suppose.....
Zee28


And therein lies the reason Zee methinks; Airfix (Hornby really) are only in it for the money. In truth, that's always been the case but in days gone there were far more little boys (and girls) with pocket money to spend on kits as there was little else around. Nowadays, for a lot of kids anyway, if it doesn't need batteries/charging and have a screen & keyboard then it stands no chance. State of the art new tools sell well and buy and large build well too; that brings repeat custom.

Another point is that Airfix no longer have their own moulding facilities, and so any production runs have to be paid for in hard cash to sub-contractors. If you have in-house facilities, then when the presses are quiet you can run off a few hundred/thousand/tens of thousand units for (basically) the cost of the raw plastic and some packaging. Gillette in Reading used to have one of the largest plastic moulding shops in Europe; when the presses were quiet (that could be just one, or all 70 plus) the engineers used to swap out the toolings used for razor components, hair curlers, aerosol caps etc. and put the golf tee tools in.....a couple of hours and 2-3 million tees later, they'd swap the tools back again. The tees were sold wholesale to various companies and virtually paid for the factory sports and social club over the course of a year. It wouldn't have worked had Gillette had to contract out their moulding.

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Is this the beginning of the end of the Red Box Re-release?
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PostPosted: December 30th, 2017, 5:38 am 
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Ratch and Iggie,

Yeah, I get the whole costs issues and what you have explained makes a certain amount of business sense for Airfix/Hornby. But it makes me wonder why they choose to finance such an extensive re-issue program at all? With the cost of all those new decal sheets, instructions etc. a few years back must have cost them a lot. And they re-issued absolutely loads of kits, only to abandon the program and abandon all that work/cost. It's a shame really.

Oh well, it'll be the dealers getting my money for classic plastic from now on, and wrestling with often nasty old decals will be the norm, rather than nice new ones. Mainly because most (but not all) of the new toolings really don't appeal to me at all.

Perhaps, in the interest of business, Airfix should take a look at the other major players like Revell, Hasegawa etc. who never miss a re-issue opportunity and exploit any profit that still might be in them, especially now all the hard work is done by Airfix themsevles. This would be preferable to abandoning their legacy completely.

Zee28


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Is this the beginning of the end of the Red Box Re-release?
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PostPosted: December 30th, 2017, 9:41 am 
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You are not doomed to having to use the original decal sheets that you find in second hand old kits. Making use of Xtradecal or Modeldecal sheets etc can transform an old kit.


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Is this the beginning of the end of the Red Box Re-release?
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PostPosted: December 30th, 2017, 12:07 pm 
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When a new tool is released, it takes 2 - 3 years before the cost of the investment in that new tool is recouped. No profit is made on any sale until the Capital outlay is amortised and this can cause a cashflow problem (not dissimilar to Hornby's current predicament).
Reissuing old kits does not incur this handicap, but this is where the standards change. When Revell reissue an old kit (like the 1963 Mustang) its just them repopping an old kit. When Airfix do likewise there is outrage in the modelling world that Airfix have the audacity to try to sell us an old kit, that they don't mark it as a crap kit, that they charge the going rate and not discount it because they've earned their money on it already. You hear all sorts of arguments why Airfix should have done it differently that are not levelled against other manufacturers doing the same thing.
By reissuing an old kit with new decals there is a chance of additional repeat sales for a minimal additional cost. I guess Hornby have come to view these reissues as harming the high standards they have set with the new toolings. Maybe they will revisit the Classic kits in due course (when they've worked out what will help enhance the brand), after all, there's no point having all those assets (the moulds) if you're not going to utilise them.
That said, my dad can remember smashing up Corgi moulds with a sledgehammer - they'd rather destroy the moulds than have them fall into the hands of competitors :evil:

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Is this the beginning of the end of the Red Box Re-release?
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PostPosted: December 30th, 2017, 3:28 pm 
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Concur on the new decals! Those were always a weak point in the classic Airfix kits. Even though I accidentally grabbed an "old mold" Hurricane I was very impressed with the new decals which have performed magnificently for me.

The Great Auk


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Is this the beginning of the end of the Red Box Re-release?
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PostPosted: December 30th, 2017, 3:50 pm 
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Eric Mc wrote:
You are not doomed to having to use the original decal sheets that you find in second hand old kits. Making use of Xtradecal or Modeldecal sheets etc can transform an old kit.

I agree Eric, but I rarely use them because, first up, I like to do OOB where possible, keeping it simple for a simple man like me! And After Market decals can be quite expensive in relation to the cost of a kit. I'm not tight with my money but it seems odd to spend, say, £10 on a decal sheet on an old kit that may have cost me £3 to £5 to buy! I've used them once or twice, but usually I will wrestle with the kit supplied decals no matter how old they are! I get weird satisfaction from doing it.

Ratch wrote:
When a new tool is released, it takes 2 - 3 years before the cost of the investment in that new tool is recouped. No profit is made on any sale until the Capital outlay is amortised and this can cause a cashflow problem (not dissimilar to Hornby's current predicament).
Reissuing old kits does not incur this handicap, but this is where the standards change. When Revell reissue an old kit (like the 1963 Mustang) its just them repopping an old kit. When Airfix do likewise there is outrage in the modelling world that Airfix have the audacity to try to sell us an old kit, that they don't mark it as a crap kit, that they charge the going rate and not discount it because they've earned their money on it already. You hear all sorts of arguments why Airfix should have done it differently that are not levelled against other manufacturers doing the same thing.

I know mate, you are so right. Why do/did Airfix take so much flak for doing what all the other major manufacturers do as a matter of course? It's almost as if Airfix can do no right. You don't hear the same level of criticism against other manufacturers that do it, only occasionally if the kit is really bad (like the Revell Mustang mentioned), it's just accepted.
Ratch wrote:
By reissuing an old kit with new decals there is a chance of additional repeat sales for a minimal additional cost.

Exactly my point Ratch. The leg work is already done, and even if it's only a small number of sales it still profit with minimal outlay.
Ratch wrote:
Maybe they will revisit the Classic kits in due course (when they've worked out what will help enhance the brand), after all, there's no point having all those assets (the moulds) if you're not going to utilise them.

Indeed mate, total agree. They have the tooling, they have (some) appreciative buyers waiting too.
Ratch wrote:
That said, my dad can remember smashing up Corgi moulds with a sledgehammer - they'd rather destroy the moulds than have them fall into the hands of competitors :evil:

Revell seem to grab any older toolings with no regard for quality. Buy a Revell kit and you could be getting an old Hasegawa kit, Frog, Matchbox, anything! They don't miss a trick! And they also do not distinguish between new and old toolings, they are all in the same style box, but they don't seem to get the same stick that Airfix did for doing the exact same thing.
The Great Auk wrote:
Concur on the new decals! Those were always a weak point in the classic Airfix kits. Even though I accidentally grabbed an "old mold" Hurricane I was very impressed with the new decals which have performed magnificently for me.

I agree, the new decal sheets bundled with these classic re-issues were (generally) all excellent. This was another thing I enjoyed about them.

Zee28


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Is this the beginning of the end of the Red Box Re-release?
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PostPosted: January 1st, 2018, 4:16 pm 
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I've just been reading through this thread with great interest and IMO, at the end of the day it's all down to the individual. As somebody said (sorry, I've forgotten who mentioned it :oops: ), it seems that Airfix can't win - some of us want all the extra detailing, and don't mind paying for it, whereas some of us feel 'cheated' if we open up a box only to find that it's the same old kit with just a new painting guide and a new sheet of decals.

Myself personally, I don't mind. For me, it's all about the subject matter. If I can get the kit I want as a CBK at a model show for a few quid, that's great. It's up to me whether I pay extra for after-market decals (something I do find hard to justify, incidentally). If it's available as a red box re-release then so much the better, it'll come with better painting guide and decals. As for the new tool kits, I think they're great if you like all the extra detailing. I have to admit, I struggle with this one though. I have built the new tool 'Wildcat' and it was a super little kit and fell together but in my stash I have the new tool kit of the Harrier GR1 and when I frotter it, I must say that the number of parts (in relation to the overall size of the model) scares me a bit. I also can't help feeling that once I've closed it up, it seem's a shame that most of the extra detailing will be hidden away.

But to sum up, I say bring on the red box re-releases, new tools and CBK's :)

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Is this the beginning of the end of the Red Box Re-release?
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PostPosted: January 7th, 2018, 12:54 pm 
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Trevor used to re-release some old kits when he saw them reaching silly prices on eBay. I don't think they sold particularly well.
Remember it is Hornby in trouble and not Airfix. Airfix is just doing the same as Scalextric, Hornby and Corgi, i.e. stopping slow selling models and concentrating on high selling ones. This is how they can bring money into Hornby's coffers.

Once the Hornby 'train' is properly back on the tracks, then the 'carriages' behind can be more adventurous and release more old models. Most Airfix kits are now paid for in the first year so are profitable thereafter. Once paid for it costs the same, more or less, to release a 1959 Zero or a 2012 Zero. The difference is that one is a new tool and one an old.

There are some aircraft and other series that are never going to be retooled by Airfix and so we might see them re-emerge briefly in the future.
Airfix is being heavily criticised by some modellers for basically only selling new tools, what about all the other manufacturers who are releasing old models.

We are all looking forward to Tuesday!


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