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Did German interior colours change a little?
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 Post subject: Did German interior colours change a little?
PostPosted: December 27th, 2017, 3:36 am 
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Hi all,

This a question for Luftwaffe experts regarding RLM interior colours of aircraft during WW2.

To be honest, I'm not a stickler for total and complete accuracy regarding colours, I'm just pleased to complete a model to a reasonable finish. But my question is:

Did German interior colours change a little towards the end of the war?

I build a few older kits that don't always have colour call-outs for cockpit interiors but I am lead to believe that the RLM colour for these interiors were often (but not always!) a mid-grey with a reasonable hint of green in it (Is it called RLM02 ?). I use Humbrol 31 (slate grey) for this, it seems similar enough to me.

But I heard somewhere that towards the end of the War it changed slightly to be more of a pure grey, without the green element, and a tiny bit lighter in shade too. Things like the He 162 and Me 262 were (apparently) like this.

Looking at a few walk-arounds on the internet seems to endorse this, but the problem with some aircraft in museums is that they get restored, so historic accuracy, in terms of colours, can be compromised.

But this forum is where the experts are so, is this correct guys? Did it change a little?

Zee28


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Did German interior colours change a little?
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PostPosted: December 27th, 2017, 11:39 am 
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Hi Zee,
I have over my time built a few Lufftwaffe aircraft but that doesn't make me an expert but I can tell you what I know.
Up until late NOV 1941 Lufftwafe aircraft interiors would have been painted RLM 02( Grey) Revell 45 or Humbrol 86 if you use those colours. After this time they would have been painted RLM 66(Black/Grey) Revell 9 or Humbroll 184 if you use those colours...Hope this helps.

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Did German interior colours change a little?
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PostPosted: December 27th, 2017, 12:00 pm 
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Depending on the builder the Messerschmitt 109 started to come with RLM 66 cockpits from late summer 1940. Ju87s had RLM66 cockpits from the beginning of the B-2 series, early in 1940, the He111 had 66 interior from early '40 but the like of the Dorniers and Ju88s had RLM 02 till later, post summer 1941. From late 1944 some aircraft came with unpainted cockpits, eg Fw109s, Me262 and 109K & G14
Even when cockpits were in 66 wheel wells were still 02. With unpainted cockpits the wells were either 02 or unpainted
RLM66 = dark black/grey, Humbrol 32 is good for it
RLM02 = mid grayish green, Humbrol 240

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Did German interior colours change a little?
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PostPosted: December 27th, 2017, 12:58 pm 
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If you use Tamiya paints try XF22 for RLM02 and XF63 for German Grey for RLM66. Not a stickler for colors myself but they seem to work.

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Did German interior colours change a little?
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 Post subject: Re: Did German interior colours change a little?
PostPosted: December 27th, 2017, 4:42 pm 
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RLM02 is more an yellow-olive grey,

there is an in-depth discussion here
http://www.aviationofjapan.com/2010/12/ ... -grey.html
if it all seems too much, scroll down and see the conclusions,

"RAL 7003 is available in hobby paint as Revell 45 'Light Olive' but has not been tested against the samples."

Humbrol 240 might be good, as it one of the more recent Luftwaffe colours.

Lifecolor RLM 02 is rated as very close match in the link.

I made up a mix IIRC using 50/50 Tamiya XF-22 and XF-49 Khaki, which got the warm colour in the chips, but need a little white adding to get it light enough.

I have a jar of Aeromaster RLM 02 which seems good, but as it's long unavailable not very helpful.

Fredk basic summing up when there was a change from RLM 02 to RLM 66 is very handy

Zee28, if this is use and you wish to experiment, you may wish to try adding a little bright red or orange to Humbrol 31, which will brown the green element and should warm it, and you probably won't need much.

regarding RLM 66,
http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/thread/1196071471

"Jerry Crandall
RLM 66 and its changes
Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:45
66.109.141.80

Hi guys;

The changes that RLM 66 went through during the middle of the war was caused by adjustments in the chemical make up and function directed for this color.
One major paint company alone changed this formula eleven times from 1 December 1941 to 29 April 1942. For instance the first formula included gloss purple which gave the original formula for RLM 66 a dark bluish black tint. That color was dropped and other pigments were added throughout the changes that altered the color to a cooler dark gray which in some light almost has a dark green cast to it. We have samples of this color in our collection that all match very well, this includes a Bf 109 K seat, Me 262 rudder pedal, Fw 190 D-9 instrument panel and so on. Comparing this color to the earlier version, which is on our Bf 109 F canopy frame it is more of a charcoal gray.
The actual paint formula was not supplied to the approximately ten paint companies that produced quantities of paint for the Luftwaffe, so there is some variation in these mixes. Comparing a chart for instance, from Muster Schmidt with another prominent manufacturer, there are some variations.
The reason I have asserted that there were eleven changes in this time frame is that I have the ORIGINAL FORMULAS from a major paint factory that supplied the Luftwaffe during WWII. Besides RLM 66, we have most of the other important color formulas."

the Aviation of Japan blog has this useful point, I have added bold to
"
Quote:
The measurements were taken from the relevant standard and reference source paint chips - not from examples of applied paint - so please bear in mind that distinction which is always emphasised here. When some people enthuse about the paint colour varying - and it did to the extent that the Luftwaffe told their personnel not to worry about it - they can often infer that paint colour standards are useless for modelling purposes. This is to misunderstand the purpose and value of the standards. Rather than pinpointing how each and every aircraft might have been painted they provide a benchmark for the intended average colour to be visualised, which in the absence of documented and accessible samples of extant paint, might otherwise be in a vacuum Even with extant samples of applied paint many authoritative researchers and authors still have to rely on colour photographs, subjective visual comparisons and/or descriptions in order to communicate the colours. Standards can be used to triangulate this information.


I hope this helps, it's just that aren't always tidy answers in such a vast subject

cheers
T


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Did German interior colours change a little?
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PostPosted: December 27th, 2017, 7:08 pm 
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Hi Zee28, I use H31 for RLM 02 and H67 for RLM 66, no doubt some expert will tell me I am completely wrong but they look close enough for me. :grin: Hope this is of help.
Regards Celt.


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Did German interior colours change a little?
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PostPosted: December 28th, 2017, 5:56 pm 
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celt wrote:
Hi Zee28, I use H31 for RLM 02 and H67 for RLM 66, no doubt some expert will tell me I am completely wrong but they look close enough for me. :grin: Hope this is of help.
Regards Celt.


neither is "completely wrong" I'm not an expert, but I have looked up the details before, and so know where to find the information I have quoted or linked by noted researchers above, to allow other readers to see for themselves.

given the vagaries of RLM 66, described above, H67 is reasonable,

H31 is a bit too green for RLM 02, as detailed above, (I'l have to try adding red when I can) but is OK
( better than old Airfix call out for M20 RAF grey-green in the original 1/24th Stuka instructions ;-) )

cheers
T


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Did German interior colours change a little?
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PostPosted: December 30th, 2017, 7:20 am 
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Thanks to all of you for the detailed replies, I didn't realise I had opened such a huge can of worms!
I am not that knowledgeable about aircraft and have only really used three colours for Luftwaffe interiors.

A dark green like this (Old Airfix He-111):

Image



A grey-green like this (Old Airfix FW-189):

Image



Or a straight mid-grey like this (Old Frog Me-262):

Image



I have no idea how accurate these were. They were probably based on a combination of what the Airfix instructions said and what I'd seen on the internet.

I will be starting the Frog 1/72 He-162 soon (I got the kit for Christmas) and didn't know what colour to use for the interior and U/C bays (old Frog instructions don't say) and a quick look at some walk-arounds on the internet suggested it was more like the last one above (the straight mid-grey). What do you Luftwaffe experts say?

Zee28


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Did German interior colours change a little?
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PostPosted: December 30th, 2017, 2:46 pm 
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Dark grey cockpit. The one at Hendon museum had/has a dark grey cockpit, not RLM66 tho
Bare aluminium and wood wheel wells, dark grey u/c legs

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Its not just how good your painting is, its how good the touch-ups are too.


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