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Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
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 Post subject: Re: Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
PostPosted: February 11th, 2018, 1:10 pm 
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Looks great from here.

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Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
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 Post subject: Re: Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
PostPosted: February 11th, 2018, 9:30 pm 
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Why is he so confused ?
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My suggestion would be that you have plenty of things you can work on and not get bored with any one of them.
You should focus on getting Lizzie built and then the rear section cut off.
Ignore the turret for now, it should drop right in the rear of the fuselage at the end of the build.
While getting Lizzie ready, you can sand down the 8 "wing" pieces to get a nice clean fit then set them aside.
So get the fuselage cleaned up and simply tape it together then spend your time making it and Lizzie fit nicely.
Once happy, glue them together and clean up the join.
Then work on getting the rear wings to mate to the rear fuselage and the rudders to that; glue when happy.

Paint & decal the whole thing, then add the turret.
Make it easy on yourself, paint the entire interior of the rear fuselage, including the space for the turret in night black.

That's my plan, when I get to it.

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Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
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 Post subject: Re: Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
PostPosted: February 12th, 2018, 1:47 am 
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Thanks, Jeff. I appreciate it.

John: Thanks for weighing in. I think your suggestions are a good way to go.

Here's where I am now. The parts, with the exception of the fuselage halves, have been cleaned-up and glued together. The major assemblies have yet to be joined.

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Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
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 Post subject: Re: Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
PostPosted: February 12th, 2018, 5:12 am 
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Well, one of the (many) parts of this build I've been dreading. The cutting of the Lysander fuselage and canopy. :shock: As mentioned previously, the Airmodel instructions are of little use so back online I go. I found some decent pics of another modeler-s build which gave me a rough idea where to cut the fuselage to separate the nose from the tail - so to speak. I taped the AIrfix Lysander fuselage together, measured and marked where I wanted to begin cutting, and taped around the fuselage to the marks (for use as a guide). After a nice swig of dark ale, I began a surgeon's work. After a good five minutes work with a razor saw, I was happily surprised to see a nearly vrtical cut where I wanted it. Woohoo!

The same procedure was used on the canopy. And, likewise, I was successful. Must be the ale. :-D

So everything looked good and happy. I was ready to join the vacuform parts to the Lysander halves. The vacuform parts, by the way, looked fine when held together. So I glued each to its respective half of the Lysander (and added some extra styrene strips for strength inside the fuselage). I went to have dinner and when I returned I looked forward to joining the halves to see everything fit together perfectly.

Ha! None of the happened. Well, all of it did except the fitting together perfectly part. :oops: However it happened, on of the vacuform halves grew about a 1/16th of an inch which threw everything off. So I removed the part took off the extra, glued it back on, and...now the other half was longer. What the... :frown:

Now everything came apart and a rebuild was in order. I rechecked, measured, and scrapped away everything so now it appears to be okay. Lots of gaps that will need filling, but that's expected with this kind of kit. So here's where we leave off tonight:

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Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
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 Post subject: Re: Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
PostPosted: February 12th, 2018, 11:17 am 
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This will be special ;-)

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Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
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 Post subject: Re: Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
PostPosted: February 12th, 2018, 6:04 pm 
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You're doing sterling work with this, PW - not what I'd consider an easy project at all! I can recommend beer to steady the hands up to a certain point and then it can all go pear shaped - the tipping point depends upon the individual of course :grin:

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Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
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 Post subject: Re: Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
PostPosted: February 13th, 2018, 10:37 pm 
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I am a scratch builder - having got here from conversions.... I have never attempted a vacform so bear this in mind when reading on.

From what I can see in the last photo you have made a pretty good joint so far. Lots of filler is the norm for this sort of thing in my experience, so I used card to bulk things out if necessary. I also used (and still use) white paint as a primer but also to show where the small irregularities are in joints - it works well and prevents tears when the top coats go on. I expect small irregularities with this king of work - then I am not disappointed. I also suggest that you use a small spar to help join the tail unit to the fuselage - this will help ensure that the tail units are horizontal and will strengthen what are otherwise weak butt joints. You could also extend it right through to the fins - make that joint stronger too.

In all I admire your courage in giving this a go - certainly an interesting aircraft. I seem to remember that this appeared in Airfix Magazine many years ago, but I could be wrong and would need to check. I suspect that vacforms are much like any other form of modelling - the more you make the easier they become....


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Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
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 Post subject: Re: Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
PostPosted: February 14th, 2018, 6:50 am 
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FaaMan, ShaunW, and the Lone Modeller (LM): Thank you all very much for your kind comments and encouragement. I do appreciate it a great deal. And Shaun, I only had one ale during this stage of the build...really. ;-)

LM: I appreciate the building tips and suggestions (especially about adding a spar for the tail "wings").

And now, the update...

Things really went sideways last night and I certainly felt like chucking it into the bin. I had hoped to glue the halves together but the styrene had other ideas. Both halves were still secure (albeit not securely as I wanted to add additional supports at this stage) to the Lysander fuselage when I noticed that the styrene had twisted out of shape. I have no idea why. Is this some peculiar property of styrene vacuform models? So I pulled it apart again and went back to shaping, sanding and cutting. Well, you guessed it, I made a big mess of it. It was very frustrating to say the least and I had to walk away from it less it be tossed against the wall. :evil:

So today, I gave it lots of thought about how best I might approach this build in order to salvage it. I gathered all the parts and built a little frame of spars to guide and hold the styrene bit in place. It took a few attempts to get close to acceptable, but it isn't to bad. Needless to say I will be using LOTS of filler and sanding my life away. I have a pic but will need to post it later. Its a grudge match now.


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Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
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 Post subject: Re: Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
PostPosted: February 14th, 2018, 7:05 am 
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Sounds a tough build! But we have every confidence in you!

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Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
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 Post subject: Re: Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
PostPosted: February 14th, 2018, 9:29 am 
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I've only made one vacform -- the infamous Contrail TSR.2 -- and the main problem that I remember was getting the correct depth of the parts, because the manufacturers don't always allow for the thickness of the plastic sheet that the parts have to be cut out of, which then means that parts have to be sanded down to the correct depth. Since you're matching the rear fuselage to that of the Matchbox kit, do take care to check that this is not a problem. It could also affect the lower wing and fins, whcih could end up overly thick.

As to why people make vacforms... well, usually (it certainly was in my case) it's because they can't get the model any other way! Way back when, the vacform companies were the only people doing models of rare or obscure types like the TSR.2 and the tandem-wing Lysander. Limited-run injection kits were off in the future and die-casts were toys. It was a vac-form or nothing.

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Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
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 Post subject: Re: Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
PostPosted: February 15th, 2018, 6:42 am 
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Thanks, Jim and Tarkas. :grin:

Tarkas: I was hoping to see your "infamous" TSR2 build on the forum, but didn't find it. Is it here someplace? Also, I had done some work on thinning the trailing edges but looked at them more critically after reading your post. They all got a good scraping and look better now. Thanks.

Here's a pic after last night when I just built a framework inside the Lysander fuselage and (heavily) glued the conversion on.

Image

After spending the last day drying out, I was happy to see that things turned out okay.


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Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
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 Post subject: Re: Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
PostPosted: February 16th, 2018, 6:57 am 
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After having the last couple of days filled with frustration with working on this model, I learned it pays to walk away a bit and come back when you aren't so wired-up. The internal frame I made from the extra pieces of styrene seems to be working out quite well. I did some more sanding, filling, and forming before applying the Delanne wing to the rear fuselage. Here's the result thus far:

Image

I used a small aluminum rod for the spar running through the Delanne wing. The vertical stabilizers are also secured to the wing with small spars made from cut plastic.

Image

So more sanding and filling to come.


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Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
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 Post subject: Re: Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
PostPosted: February 16th, 2018, 1:48 pm 
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Good stuff!. Always helps to walk away, the problem being we don't always realise the moment to do so has arrived!!. :roll:

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Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
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 Post subject: Re: Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
PostPosted: February 16th, 2018, 4:36 pm 
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PropWash wrote:
Tarkas: I was hoping to see your "infamous" TSR2 build on the forum, but didn't find it. Is it here someplace?

Oh, heck, no! That was way back when -- 30+ years ago -- and the model is long gone, like most of my then-collection, which had to find a new home when I moved from Oz to the UK. I doubt this forum (or any internet forum, really) was more than the proverbial twinkle in someone's grandad's eye when I made that.

And it was the kit that was infamous (for its inaccuracies; see any general review of TSR.2 kits), not my build -- which, as a first stab at a vacform, was inevitably not that good, but it looked like a TSR.2, more or less, and that was good enough for me -- and, as I said, it was that kit or nothing as far as having a TSR.2 model. I remember having real problems getting the canopy to fit the fuselage and blending the wing into the top of the fuselage, but it got done somehow. I have this vague memory of the canopy being an incredibly thick piece of "clear" plastic, but I may be confusing it with something from a Mach 2 kit... :mrgreen:

Regardless, the Lizzie is looking good, and I shall continue to follow this build with interest.

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Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
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 Post subject: Re: Airfix 1/72 Lysander conversion to a P.12 tandem
PostPosted: February 16th, 2018, 4:57 pm 
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Sounds like some frustrating moments there, PM. Best to walk away when it gets like that! IMHO there are few modelling fit issues that can't be solved by a bit of brute force, a lot of polystyrene cement, a bunch of filler and plenty of patience. Keep at it as it really looks to be coming together well.

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