The Scottish Airforce

[beany]

I have been reading with interest the kinds of changes that might be expected were our cousins north of the border to achieve full blown independence from the UK.

It raises so many questions and as you might expected has already been debated ad-nauseum, but being a simple airplane modeller, my area of interest is what aircraft might one expect to find in a newly independant Scottish Air Force (presumably NOT the Royal Scottish Air Force) and what national markings would be adopted. I ask this because I already sense a disturbance in the force that may result in a Scottish Air Force (Whif) Group Build at some stage.
I can already picture inauguration or anniversary jets with tartan adorning their tail fins. I'm also wondering what would become of the Union Flag should Scotland leave the UK. Personally I don't see it happening to this degree whatsoever. I can see why some Scots would want their independence when they feel they are being governed by folk with little interest in their well being down in that London - I live in Derby and feel the same way, but I feel fully blown independence is unattainable for many reasons - the Euro question being among the leaders.

Anyway, I digress. Suggestions of National markings for a Scottish Air Force here please, and also the type of aircraft Scotland may have to acquire. Interesting thought - what percentage of the current armed forces would an independent Scotland be entitled to in the "divorce" settlement, as they contribute £3bn a year towards them at the moment I believe?!

Cheers
Al.

Cheers the noo...
Al.

[jssel]

Not sure but it should incorporate either the Cutty Sark or Glenlivet label.

[Beowulf Shaeffer]

i think if idependence came (and the welsh would want it too) then there would be some kind of 'Mutual Defence Force since none of the newly on-thier-own countries would be able to afford much. no doubt the Tiffies and Tonkas would be sold off as spares like the Harriers were

but i think this has some merit, im already thinking of ideas

in terms of suitable aircraft, would scotland be more interested in maritime patrol?.....has fishing/oil interests to look after. SAR might be a area to be addressed

[Viking]

LOL, i love the topic.

There could be 2 possible scenarios from a modelling perspective; one where we look at what is practical and cost effective, the other where we look at what we would like , however, Beany's question was over realities rather than fantasy so to stick with that.....

In terms of markings; i think the most likely is either a blue / white roundel or a white cross on a blue roundel, either would work for me. In terms of practicality, i understand that the Greek airforce could be coming up for sale soon ? that way we would not even have to change the markings.....

Aircraft types would be interesting. A costal defence force like the Norwegian or Danish forces would need helicopters, some transport aircraft, maritime survailence, some Sigint assests and a squadron or two of frontline jets configured as ground attack / air defence. what would they be ? well, we would inherit a % of the current RAF so would have the current RAF types (although the cost effectivness of having a single (?) Typhoon squadron may be debatable; may be an argument for sharing / augmenting the Nordic F-16 fleet to minimise CAPEX and maintenance costs. The GR4's would go in that scenario (although we could use the ex RAF Harriers if the US dont want them). Operating bases would also be interesting. I cannt see Leuchars being reopened, so we would stick with Kinloss / Lossie as the mainland base with some SAR stuff at Prestwick, Sumburgh and Turnhouse.

In terms of the union jack; i think that would be a question for the remains of the UK to decide; we would fly the Saltire although, it may be that the flag could remain unchanged for use with the rest of the UK as the blue of the UJ is far darker than the blue of the saltire. Or, the saltire could be removed and be left with the cross of st george with the crowned red hand added for NI (oh, wait, thats already been done..... ). Maybe superimpose a dragon and a red hand on the white fields of the CstG ?
looking forward to more ideas

Alan

[PaulBradley]

I don't think they'd be able to afford much beyond trainers and long range helos. I'd envisage something akin to the Irish Air Force. Some Tucanos transferred from the RAF and Super Pumas either leased from oil companies or second hand. Maybe pick up some CN235/C-27 types for patrol, in which case they'd have more capability for that than Great Britain.

[Beowulf Shaeffer]

(although we could use the ex RAF Harriers if the US dont want them).

good luck with that.....last time i saw they were so much scrap airframes in the desert

[Migrant]

There's a SA Bulldog flying in 'Republic of Scotland' colours:

Bulldog.

[Eric Mc]

I suppose a Bulldog is appropriate, since they were built in Scotland - but only after they'd been nicked from Beagle.

[bromo]

So Engerland,the last bit can have the cross of St George on there tails,if Scotland wants to go then let it go,the same with Wales,and your welcome to the Euro as well.

[Falcon]

Interesting thought - what percentage of the current armed forces would an independent Scotland be entitled to in the "divorce" settlement, as they contribute £3bn a year towards them at the moment I believe?!

What about the £52bn that goes North from Whitehall each year?

[Viking]

What about the £52bn that goes North from Whitehall each year?

That was my point

without getting into a political debate, the general consensus here is that Scotland is a net contributer to the UK economy to the tune of several billion £ per year (the actual figures are hotly debated and subject to political spin, both ways ).

in terms of post independance split of resources, it is generally accepted (again with political spin either way) that Scotland would inherit a % of the current UK "shared" resources based on any combination you choose of population / land mass / economy but most likely ~10%.

in terms of airforce, a bit like the german airforce post unification, we would have the split of the RAF airframes and then need to decide what was useful and suitable goimng forward; maybe we could swap "our" Typhoons for some extra maritime survallience ?

In terms of size, again the general consensus is to look to Norway as the example of what we would have / need based on population, coast line, land mass, resources and expected mission profiles, so expect a couple of squadrons of frontline jets but with more emphasis on maritime patrol and SAR than the current RAF.

And, yes, before anyone asks; I am a strong supporter of independance

[MerlinJones]

Pushing politics aside, you could never assume that Scotland would inherit anything from the rest of the UK and hard negotiations would need to occur and that the scope of these would have to include Army and navy assets. The latter, in particular, could be a valuable bargaining chip.
The RN could not really afford to lose the likes of Faslane and, if permission to use the facilities was retained, then the new Scottish Air Force would need the capability to keep a watchful eye. The Norwegian model would be a good one and the Scots may find an alliance with those Scandanavian countries to be more to their advantage than any past allegioance to Whitehall.
This would, as has previously been stated, require a sound Maritime Patrol option, with offensive capability...although simply from birth, many Scots maintain a large degree of offensive capability!

Ho ho.
Only joking, he says, remembering just how close he is to the Bordurrrr!

Regards,
Bruce

[PaulBradley]

in terms of airforce, a bit like the german airforce post unification, we would have the split of the RAF airframes and then need to decide what was useful and suitable goimng forward; maybe we could swap "our" Typhoons for some extra maritime survallience ?

The RAF has NO maritime surveillance capability, and a 10% allocation of available Typhoons would equal about 1 squadron.

Maybe we've discovered why the RAF has been cut so badly in recent years - so they don't have to give much to the Scots! There's a lesson in parsimony.....

[Viking]

in terms of airforce, a bit like the german airforce post unification, we would have the split of the RAF airframes and then need to decide what was useful and suitable goimng forward; maybe we could swap "our" Typhoons for some extra maritime survallience ?

The RAF has NO maritime surveillance capability, and a 10% allocation of available Typhoons would equal about 1 squadron.
quote]

I know; but its a fascinating opportunity to play devils advocate; how about swapping the squadron of typhoons for some Bears ? Or, as Bruce suggests, the cost of keeping Faslane open for the nuclear subs could be some MR capability paid for by the UK government. there are lots of fun suggestions that could be made over the "negotiations": HMS Queen Elizabeth is due to be put together at Rosyth, so that gives the Scottish Navy a flat-top; the type 45's are built in Glasgow so that gives the escort (based on the break up of the USSR scenario where Ukraine ended up with the Black Sea fleet); doesn't that make the post independance Scottish Navy more powerful than the Royal Navy ? of course if the UK wanted them back, all they would have to do was make an offer....

[MerlinJones]

And Barrow makes subs...your call!