The History
On 14 April, 1942, the USS Jesse Roper (DD-147) sunk the U-85 some 16 miles off the North Carolina coast at Nags Head. This was the first U-boat to be sunk off the North American coast since the start of Operation Drumbeat (Pukenschlag) in January.
The U-85 was a Type VIIB, commissioned on 7 June 1941 under the command of Oblt. Eberhard Greger, who would still be commander at the end. The boat carried a crew of 46 and while damaged before, it apparently had suffered no casualties. The U-85 was on its 4th war patrol -- it sunk one ship on each of the 1st, 3rd, and 4th war patrols for a total of 15060 GRT.
The USS Jesse Roper was a Wickes Class WW1 4-stacker, flush deck destroyer, commanded by Lt Cmdr Hamilton Wilcox Howe. While Roper had picked up survivors from two sinkings, she and her crew had no real battle experience. Interestingly, the Roper had the British Type 286 radar installed, something the U-85 was unaware of.
Around midnight 13 April 1942, Roper picked up the U-85 on radar. When U-85 spotted Roper, it attempted to run south, unaware the Roper had it on radar. At this time, both ships were in about 100 feet of water and diving was not an option. As Roper continued to close, U-85 fired one torpedo from the stern tubes, which Roper evaded, then turned sharply, possibly to unmask its deck gun. Roper seeing men on deck, apparently preparing for surface action, fired machine guns and her 3in/50, scoring hits, then ran in dropping depth charges.
At this point, confusion reigns depending on which source of conjecture one reads. The two engaged in a running gun battle, the Germans attempted to scuttle and surrender/abandon ship, the Roper committed a war crime by dropping depth charges (twice) on seamen in the water, etc …. What is known is that the U-85 went down with all hands (well actually pieces of 29 of them were recovered from the water). What seems increasingly obvious is that this may not have been the US Navy's finest hour either.
The Roper continued doing coast patrols and convoy duty until 1943 when she was converted to a high-speed transport, serving in the Mediterranean and then the Pacific until hit by a Kamikaze off Okinawa - she returned to the US for repairs, but the end of the war sent her to the breakers. U-85 is a popular dive site and part of an increased interest in that part of the Battle of the Atlantic that took place in sight of our shorelines.
The Purpose
Well, I live in the neighborhood, so this is local history. Also my IPMS chapter has a display called "North Carolina on our mind" where all the models are tied to the state -- we'll be taking that to a contest in November and it needs some updating, so this seemed like a good idea.
The Kits
I picked these two kits, in 1/700 scale.
The U-boat is really simple, so we'll talk about it first. Seems to be a generic Type VIIB. There is a choice of conning tower (type B or B2 ? ) but I'll be darned if I can see a difference in the two. With this part count, even I ought to be able to finish it in a short time. Somewhere I have a reference on the Type VII and I'll see if there's anything I can do to enhance this -- aerials, etc.
It's good the sub is so easy … The DD kit is "intended for advanced modelers. The instructions do not show placement of all parts. Reference material should be used to identify placement of additional parts provided with the kit". The hull and superstructure is one piece of resin. There is a sprue of various parts, a few white metal parts, and a large PE fret.
The instructions are bare bones. There's a drawing of the plastic parts sprue with some parts circled -- a few are shown on the instructions. The instructions for the PE fret say "This extensive sheet of Photoetch parts is provided for your enjoyment. Not all parts are used … check your references, etc…" -- my underlining.
OK, I do have some references so I'll be able to do something with all this. Seeing if I have a 1/700 something that will look like a 286 radar will be the trick I guess. Other than that I do not (yet) know any configuration details on the Roper that might differ from a typical Wickes class DD at this time -- I do have one un-dated photo of her, I suspect pre-war.
The Battle of the Atlantic, Outer Banks style ...
- JohnRatzenberger
- Why is he so confused ?
- Posts: 15730
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 3:42 pm
- Location: Living on a sandbar - Nags Head, NC.
The Battle of the Atlantic, Outer Banks style ...
John Ratzenberger
It's my model and I'll do what I want with it.
It's my model and I'll do what I want with it.
- Dirkpitt289
- NUMA's Auto Mechanic
- Posts: 8724
- Joined: May 2nd, 2011, 1:55 am
- Location: New jersey USA
- Contact:
Re: The Battle of the Atlantic, Outer Banks style ...
That's cool. We have the U-869 right off the coast of New jersey.
.... Dirk
Beware of the DOG's of WAR
My Youtube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/user/ModelingGu ... rid&view=0
Beware of the DOG's of WAR
My Youtube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/user/ModelingGu ... rid&view=0
- JohnRatzenberger
- Why is he so confused ?
- Posts: 15730
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 3:42 pm
- Location: Living on a sandbar - Nags Head, NC.
Re: The Battle of the Atlantic, Outer Banks style ...
Well, I have an issue. I took much of my info from Clay Hunter's "Hitler's U-boat War, Vol 1", pg542. In there he describes the Roper as having:
-- 5 3in/50 guns
-- 6 torp tubes
-- 75 DCs, with Y, K, and stern racks
-- the Type 286 meter wave-length radar
Typical DD's of this class had (ca 1940):
-- 4 4in/50 guns
-- 1 3in/23.5 gun
-- 4 triple torp tubes (=12)
-- 2 depth charge racks
-- 273 'Lantern' radars were added to some US DD's.
I have a lot of research to do -- either to confirm or deny the description cited above. Darn !!!
-- 5 3in/50 guns
-- 6 torp tubes
-- 75 DCs, with Y, K, and stern racks
-- the Type 286 meter wave-length radar
Typical DD's of this class had (ca 1940):
-- 4 4in/50 guns
-- 1 3in/23.5 gun
-- 4 triple torp tubes (=12)
-- 2 depth charge racks
-- 273 'Lantern' radars were added to some US DD's.
I have a lot of research to do -- either to confirm or deny the description cited above. Darn !!!
John Ratzenberger
It's my model and I'll do what I want with it.
It's my model and I'll do what I want with it.
- AndrewR
- In the basement lab
- Posts: 24093
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 4:13 pm
- Location: Ottawa, Ontario, The Great White North
- Contact:
Re: The Battle of the Atlantic, Outer Banks style ...
The USN site says 4" guns...
http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=6660;
No idea as to the reliability of that press release though!
http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=6660;
No idea as to the reliability of that press release though!
Up in the Great White North
-
- Active Participant
- Posts: 643
- Joined: June 27th, 2011, 6:58 pm
- Location: Lincoln
Re: The Battle of the Atlantic, Outer Banks style ...
I believe they were built and commisioned with the following,
4 × 4 inch/50 caliber guns
1 × 3 inch/23 caliber guns
12 × 21 inch torpedo tubes
But this may have changed before the 2nd world war when they strated the neutrality patrols??????
Justin
4 × 4 inch/50 caliber guns
1 × 3 inch/23 caliber guns
12 × 21 inch torpedo tubes
But this may have changed before the 2nd world war when they strated the neutrality patrols??????
Justin
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions?
- JohnRatzenberger
- Why is he so confused ?
- Posts: 15730
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 3:42 pm
- Location: Living on a sandbar - Nags Head, NC.
Re: The Battle of the Atlantic, Outer Banks style ...
Thanks Andrew & Justin.
I do know that these DD's were converted for escort duties and the 3in/50 replaced the 4in/50 because the 3in/50 was dual-purpose -- surface & anti-air. I also know that torp tubes were removed to make room for DC throwers. There were other changes. My problem has been tying these changes to a time period -- for example, I've not found any logs, etc, that give refit dates, so I'm not exactly sure when Roper underwent them.
I have found 3 photos of Roper that could be in the new config but they are too indistinct to get details. I need to know the number and location of the 3in/50 -- five is an odd number, and I have seen where some received up to 6. I need to know which tubes were removed -- I suspect from other pix, it was the aft pair. I need to know the numbers and locations of the K- and Y- guns. Lastly, I need to know if any small caliber AA, such as 20mm, were added.
This has gotten way more complicated than I first imagined. One problem is that, historically, the old Wickes class were neither fish-nor-fowl. Most WW2 books talk about classes of ship developed immediately prior or during WW2 and give short shrift to the upgraded moldy-oldies ....
Part of my problem is that my focus on the Battle of the Atlantic has always been the Flowers and it is thin elsewhere.
I do know that these DD's were converted for escort duties and the 3in/50 replaced the 4in/50 because the 3in/50 was dual-purpose -- surface & anti-air. I also know that torp tubes were removed to make room for DC throwers. There were other changes. My problem has been tying these changes to a time period -- for example, I've not found any logs, etc, that give refit dates, so I'm not exactly sure when Roper underwent them.
I have found 3 photos of Roper that could be in the new config but they are too indistinct to get details. I need to know the number and location of the 3in/50 -- five is an odd number, and I have seen where some received up to 6. I need to know which tubes were removed -- I suspect from other pix, it was the aft pair. I need to know the numbers and locations of the K- and Y- guns. Lastly, I need to know if any small caliber AA, such as 20mm, were added.
This has gotten way more complicated than I first imagined. One problem is that, historically, the old Wickes class were neither fish-nor-fowl. Most WW2 books talk about classes of ship developed immediately prior or during WW2 and give short shrift to the upgraded moldy-oldies ....
Part of my problem is that my focus on the Battle of the Atlantic has always been the Flowers and it is thin elsewhere.
John Ratzenberger
It's my model and I'll do what I want with it.
It's my model and I'll do what I want with it.
-
- Active Participant
- Posts: 653
- Joined: May 1st, 2011, 7:25 am
- Location: Grenfell NSW Australia
Re: The Battle of the Atlantic, Outer Banks style ...
Have you looked up the details of HMS Campbeltown and her sisters?
Dai
Dai
Life or Death there no other options.
Indian Proverb.
Indian Proverb.
- JohnRatzenberger
- Why is he so confused ?
- Posts: 15730
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 3:42 pm
- Location: Living on a sandbar - Nags Head, NC.
Re: The Battle of the Atlantic, Outer Banks style ...
Good idea.DH-Drover wrote:Have you looked up the details of HMS Campbeltown and her sisters?
Dai
Roper was in the same class as Buchanan which became Campbeltown -- so they started as the same ship sometime back in 1919-21. I have several detailed refs on Campbeltown and did a build recently, see http://www.uamf.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=550; but am unable to tie the two together yet. As far as I know, the 50 lendlease DD's took a different configuration path than those retained by the USN.
John Ratzenberger
It's my model and I'll do what I want with it.
It's my model and I'll do what I want with it.
- JohnRatzenberger
- Why is he so confused ?
- Posts: 15730
- Joined: April 5th, 2011, 3:42 pm
- Location: Living on a sandbar - Nags Head, NC.
Re: The Battle of the Atlantic, Outer Banks style ...
I perhaps have bitten off more than I can chew ....
First, I "discovered" today that while the U-boat can be built full-hull or waterline, the DD is waterline only. I had intended full-hull display, not an in-water diorama ... Fortunately I caught this before I had glued the hull halves together ...
Next, I inventoried all the parts that come with the DD. Both the sprue and photo-etch are generic DD stuff. 5in guns, open or covered mount, 40mm, 20mm, 50-cal, 1.1mg, k-guns, racks, radars, davits, ladders, cable reels, railings, etc, etc ... everything except 3in/50 guns and Y-guns. The latter are easy to make, but I haven't decided on the 3in/50 yet.
PS: In some respects this is a dry run for the Pearl Harbor GB later this year, as I'll be using the same kit for the USS Ward .... at least it will be much more OOB than this one ....
First, I "discovered" today that while the U-boat can be built full-hull or waterline, the DD is waterline only. I had intended full-hull display, not an in-water diorama ... Fortunately I caught this before I had glued the hull halves together ...
Next, I inventoried all the parts that come with the DD. Both the sprue and photo-etch are generic DD stuff. 5in guns, open or covered mount, 40mm, 20mm, 50-cal, 1.1mg, k-guns, racks, radars, davits, ladders, cable reels, railings, etc, etc ... everything except 3in/50 guns and Y-guns. The latter are easy to make, but I haven't decided on the 3in/50 yet.
PS: In some respects this is a dry run for the Pearl Harbor GB later this year, as I'll be using the same kit for the USS Ward .... at least it will be much more OOB than this one ....
John Ratzenberger
It's my model and I'll do what I want with it.
It's my model and I'll do what I want with it.