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1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overdue!
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 Post subject: 1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overdue!
PostPosted: March 22nd, 2017, 3:38 pm 
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Series 3 and Beyond
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See pics of a 1/12th scale mounted samurai I started c1970.

This is mainly DAS clay on various armatures, plus odd bits of wood, thread, rugby boot laces and my Mum's hair (her bald spot has since grown back). Many parts such as his katana/wakizashi combo (the katana blade was 'forged' out of a nail and slid into a plastic straw scabbard), yari, saddle, stirrups and bridle/bit etc are missing and other bits broken (BTW: I went for the smaller/stockier Japanese horse rather than a European stallion).

The build follows several years of taking the old Airfix figures further and further away from their originals to my first (99%) scratchbuild of an Old Guard Grenadier (see Golden Oldie Conversions on the figures board http://uamf.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15254).

The samurai largely died the death (seppuku?) due to my moving to London and feeling that modelling (in our sense of the word) didn't quite fit with my newfound 70/80s man-about-town image. I also met and married my wife, then had kids, so modelling (other than helping out with my son's teen craze for Warhammer) gradually disappeared altogether.

However, I also ran into problems in deciding how to make the laminate armour. It would be beyond my skill to model in clay and plans to drill thin metal plate then thread them together (as I did with the helmet's skirts/shikoro and the facemask/men's gorget/tari- both now missing). A friend who was into Scale 4 railways suggested using a drilling jig; as an alternative, I bought stuff to cast white metal sections from a master strip of laminates but neither method went further... however, I've now ordered some 'Blue Stuff' themo-plastic moulding material https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVZLXLaidjQ which looks as if it may do the job (once I have a master that is). I intend to mould horizontal sections, then cut to size and build up the panels.

Pics below (apologies if some make him look 'Mikado Yellow'... that's an attempt to get the face mask enough contrast).

Any construction ideas welcome... IN PARTICULAR: if I go the press-moulding route, any ideas of the best material to mould in (Milliput; Green Stuff; Pro-Create; Magic Sculpt... some even mix them). What I ideally need is something that I can take out of the mould whilst still pliable so I can shape it to the section required section.

SORRY IF A SURFEIT OF PICS :roll:


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1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overdue!
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 Post subject: Re: 1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overd
PostPosted: March 23rd, 2017, 1:07 am 
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Why is he so confused ?
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Interesting ! I'm sure lots to learn from following.

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1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overdue!
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 Post subject: Re: 1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overd
PostPosted: March 25th, 2017, 10:26 am 
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Whoah, that's an ambitious project!
Wish you good patience to finish it.
I know why I stick to 72 scale....
The horsey looks so alive, i want to pat it on its
head, asking "now, who's a good boy?"
And the Samurai's face looks like "dangerous to know"!
Any progress yet?

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1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overdue!
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 Post subject: Re: 1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overd
PostPosted: March 25th, 2017, 1:00 pm 
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Thanks both.

My only progress so far is to order some GreenStuff (I may experiment with mixing with Milliput, which I never really liked) plus some of that Blue Stuff thermo plastic. My plan is to sculpt a master strip of armour with the cords etc moulded in then mass produce strips to build up the skirts.

I ideally I'd like to be able to remove each strip whilst still a little pliable so I can cut and shape to fit.

Otherwise, I came across some picture hanging wire which I may be able to use instead.

See

https://uk.pinterest.com/pin/535013630710736367/



and the black and red ones below: (though I'll not finish in red)

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1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overdue!
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 Post subject: Re: 1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overd
PostPosted: March 25th, 2017, 1:33 pm 
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This is pretty well what I'm aiming for:

And some great references here:
https://uk.pinterest.com/pin/473440979548563809/
https://www.aoijapan.jp/%E5%88%80%E8%A3 ... 7%E5%85%9C

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1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overdue!
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 Post subject: Re: 1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overd
PostPosted: March 26th, 2017, 1:16 am 
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Very cool! Fascinating stuff, Neil.

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1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overdue!
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 Post subject: Re: 1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overd
PostPosted: March 27th, 2017, 1:03 am 
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Why is he so confused ?
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Beyond me, but I'm very grateful for the picture/glossary so I'll understand it.

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1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overdue!
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 Post subject: Re: 1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overd
PostPosted: March 28th, 2017, 3:01 pm 
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Very interesting Neil. You should visit the Royal armouries in Leeds. They have a very interesting collection of Samurai armour amongst other things.

https://collections.royalarmouries.org/object/rac-object-46053.html

The armoured elephant is very impressive too - although obviously not Japanese.
They do a very nice pot of tea & caramel slice too :grin:

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1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overdue!
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 Post subject: Re: 1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overd
PostPosted: March 29th, 2017, 8:37 am 
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Tonto... are you clairvoyant?

I'm off to Leeds today and if time allows aim to call in tomorrow. I believe the V&A also has a collection.

UPDATE: Sod's Law... I wasn't able to visit it after all. I recall studying some of these armours in the Tower when I first started on this project (probably got some b/w negs of somewhere). However, thanks to the wonders of the interweb, I already have more references than I can handle (including some sites on 'how to build your suit of armour', eg http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html) and one from a UK based restorer http://yoroi.uk/. Both are good to gain insights into construction and fine details.

My main decision now is whether to model a specific suit or just pick'n'mix the features I like (this is fine as no 'standard pattern' existed).

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1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overdue!
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 Post subject: Re: 1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overd
PostPosted: March 31st, 2017, 10:51 am 
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Now received the Green-Stuff and Blue-Stuff... amazed at how little you get for your money!

As I already have some Milliput and bought a slab of DAS from The Works the other day I can see that I'll be using these for the bulk and reserving the Expensive-Stuff (perhaps a Milliput/GS mix) for the details. I also bought a pot of plastic wood (consistency of wall filler), so I'll experiment with that as well.

I'm also considering the best way to do the lacing. Either mould in putty (via B-S press mould), either integral with the armour or in separate strips), or, and more authentically, use separate laces... the old sheet lead/zinc from wine bottle tops or toothpaste tubes is best, but most are now plastic, so I would have to find a source.

ANYONE GOT ANY IDEAS?

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1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overdue!
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 Post subject: Re: 1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overd
PostPosted: April 2nd, 2017, 2:18 am 
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I gather you are at this stage "My plan is to sculpt a master strip of armour with the cords etc moulded in then mass produce strips to build up the skirts." ?

I'm afraid I still don't have a good picture of this, but I guess the lace is flat, not round ? Maybe some solder or soft wire hammered down ?

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1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overdue!
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 Post subject: Re: 1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overd
PostPosted: April 2nd, 2017, 1:54 pm 
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Hi John,

Yes, I'm grappling with the laminar armour. I've found some really useful sites which show how the lacing works in detail... and yes, it is flat, so either strips of lead/zinc or, as you suggest, hammered solder/wire would work (I also picked up some thin leather which could also work).

This guy http://yoroi.uk/makes/sells his own silk braid and provides much useful advice... if I could get scale braiding (or leather) I could even do a proper fully laced job. See http://yoroi.uk/%E5%A8%81-odoshi/

I've been experimenting with the Blue-Stuff... so far not 100% impressed although that's probably as much my technique and using Milliput rather than Green-Stuff (or a mix).

I'll post pics comparing both versions as/when I've done them.

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1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overdue!
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 Post subject: Re: 1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overd
PostPosted: April 5th, 2017, 2:19 pm 
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Updating (some) progress.

I made a couple of Blue-Stuff moulds of my samurai's face and of part of the gessan (skirt) from a 1/35th Poste Militaire figure (c30 years old and half completed). Tried moulding in Das, Milliput and Green-Stuff as below. Rather disappointed with the results: not sure if it's my technique of that B-S isn't really up to such fine detail (I suspect a bit of both).

One option may be to just use a B-S mould to create a basic lame then remove it whilst still mouldable to finish off.

I've since discovered cold cure moulding material so may give them a go... any experience anyone?

I also played around with moulding one lame (I'll need 5 of different widths as they flare out from the waist) from a gessan (Green-Stuff: my first real go in modelling with it... I found it very sticky but OK once a skin had formed). I shaped it around a jar lid. It's oversize at 24mm as it should be between 15-20mm (see below). Again I moulded using B-S in Das/Milli/G-S: results showing how they stack against each other below.

Clearly Das is no good; Milli may be; G-S is best, though less easy to file afterwards... I suspect that experimenting with Milli/G-S mix will be worthwhile.

BTW: I put some HDR adjustment on the pics to enhance the details.

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1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overdue!
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 Post subject: Re: 1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overd
PostPosted: April 5th, 2017, 2:55 pm 
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Another posting to show some real progress.

In trying to work out the scale size of the lames of the gessan I realised that the two shown on a b/w illustration I had are just about 1/12th.

This meant that, with a couple of screen shots, some prints, a pair of scissors, some bluetack and sellotape, I was able to try it out for size, as shown below (7 gessan sections plus the hadaite that protect the thighs).

I real step forward as this means the I now have a pattern/template for construction.

BTW: now going off moulding and may try experimenting with plastic or paper card (I have loads of plant labels which may do the trick).

The fit looks a bit 'Burton-Schmurton', but these give the idea (again hdr'd to bring out the contrast).

I've also posted shots of the PM 1/35th model to compare (note that the lames' upper knots are too 'X' shaped: they should be almost square: see the two photos under " Sugake odoshi" here: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html).


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1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overdue!
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 Post subject: Re: 1/12th scale Scratchbuild Samurai... only 45 years overd
PostPosted: April 5th, 2017, 5:52 pm 
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Neil Wellman wrote:
the old sheet lead/zinc from wine bottle tops or toothpaste tubes is best, but most are now plastic, so I would have to find a source.
You could try here, but they only sell life time supplies (50x100 cm rolls): https://www.lood.nu/hobbylood-op-rol
The site is in Dutch only, but I'm willing to bet you can arrange something by telephone if that is a problem.

I have a roll each of the three thinnest sizes. I could be bribed into parting with some of that, but I suspect shipping will be so evil that you might as well buy direct from the source.

Even if the 0.35mm is still too thick, I've found that rolling it into even thinner sheets is quite doable with little more than a glass bottle for a tool, the lead is just that soft.

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